Dating Decline: Why Nobody Knows What The Hell They’re Doing Anymore
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[social_warfare]
Here we are, in the 21st century. Gen-X’ers, Millenials, Gen-Whatever’ers are having a hard enough time as it is navigating massive student loan debts, high rents, and a difficult job market. To add the icing on the cake, they are floundering through the dating world slash hookup culture and quickly discovering that nobody knows what the hell they are doing.
That’s probably because there is no structure. There is no methodology. There is no progressive course of events. And many times, there are really no role models out there leading by example for what to even do.
Essentially, everyone is like a ship at sea without a destination. Maybe hoping to bump into another one every once in awhile and ask how to get to port, but everybody’s navigation seems to be broken.
I think a big part of this is the fact that people [particularly younger men and women] have completely lost sight of what ‘dating’ actually means. Then again, maybe they didn’t actually lose sight of it because they never knew in the first place. Many members of the more recent generations have grown up just ‘hanging out’ with each other and calling it a relationship.
Actually going to a movie (not that that’s the best date idea…) gave way to coming over to watch a movie – which was essentially just code words to make the invitation sound less forward. Calling a girl to actually ask her out on a date has become a last minute “Hey, want to hang out?” text that implies no effort or real meaning whatsoever.
A date is not a random, last minute invitation. When you are getting to know someone, a date should be planned. It doesn’t have to be extravagant or expensive, but it should actually bear some resemblance to a series of events that you put some conscious effort into in order to ensure both parties actually enjoy themselves.
But, this notion is on a quite obvious decline. I don’t think there is just one thing to blame. I think we are losing social skills despite “social media” that make people more uncomfortable around one another and perhaps contribute to less of a willingness to actually form a real life connection that doesn’t require a friend request.
I think we are losing the value of commitment. We see this in the job market, we see it with technology, and we are seeing it with significant others. Everything just seems to be a placeholder to keep us busy until something better comes along. And – this is happening with ‘relationships’ too. What happened to the honor of keeping your word? The dignity of standing by someone when things get difficult? The integrity of upholding the promises you made long after the mood that you made them in, has past?
It is all declining. And we are wondering why everyone is always complaining about the opposite sex.
Our young men are also getting flooded with mixed messages. Do women want to be equal, or do they want to be courted? Is there even a conflict between the two? Can’t chivalry and equality coexist? Should he still pay for dinner? These questions can be confusing to people who have not yet defined their own answers to believe in.
But…what if you get turned down? What if you get rejected? In a society where trophies are handed out just for participating, we are not learning to lose – therefore we are not learning to identify our weaknesses and improve them.
It is all declining. And it is taking the concept of dating and courtship down with it.
Men find themselves perpetually trapped in what they call the ‘friend zone’ and wonder why. Without asking a woman on a proper date, she has no reason to believe you even want to be anything more than friends. Hanging out or even going out for drinks or spending time in groups does not send her the message that you are serious about her.
If actually conveying to the woman you are interested in that you are interested in her isn’t a good reason to invite her on a real life date, I don’t know what is.
For this reason, think about how rare it is for a woman to be asked on a date. Women get approached constantly. They get complimented constantly. They get invited to clubs and parties and events and whatevers, constantly. But do you know what the difference is? Those men are not you. Those men are not putting in the effort to actually discover who she is. Those men are not taking the time to express interest in her and to do something together that would allow you to actually have a real conversation.
Let’s be honest – a lot of men out there are just trying to get into her pants. But you want more than that. Telling her isn’t enough, you’re going to have to show her.
I’m sure I am not the only one who has heard the low-hanging fruit analogy when it comes to dating. Men, in order to avoid rejection (and possibly effort), will do what is easiest. They will invite women to just hang out. They won’t approach the woman who they really want to get to know because she just might be out of his league. They will grab at the apple on the bottom branch, because hey, it’s easier.
And the whole time this is happening, the freshest fruits are in the top branches staying untouched because every man is thinking the same way. Little do they know, desirable women are probably not being asked on real dates as often as you might think.
Are you going to take the easy road and keep ‘hanging out,’ or are you going to take a chance and climb the tree? You might fall down a few times and get hurt, but you will become better on each climb to a new apple.
There are women out there waiting for someone to prove that all men are not the same. They are waiting for a man to take the initiative and invite them on a real, actual date. They are waiting for a man to climb the tree.
Is it going to be you?
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Great and a very true article for now a day hanging out dating, and it is exactly as you describe it all, but aren’t you too lenient with the states quo?
Don’t get me wrong, I am a follower who values your thoughts greatly, and agrees with you 100%, only that I think a lot of people need to have a bolder message into their thought process regarding dating, and have a life out of ” a friend request ” ?
And I hope that many of them ” those ships at sea ” will somehow bump into your article and read it.
Thanks,
Some of it I feel is true but some isn’t. I’m usually straight forward tell the girl in interested and ask them out to lunch so we can talk to get to know each other. It seems like EVERYONE agrees that I should be asking them to go get a drink or ask them to hang out instead because it’s too blunt. I feel like the reason dating is so hard because girls don’t have a clue what they really want. Even if they did know what they want when the one that comes along and proves themselves worthy they get scared and they say no. I believe girls say they want someone nice, but in reality they all just wanted to be treated like crap
Amen. Amen. Amen
I have to say while there are some good points in your article, I find the heart of this issue to lie almost exclusively with the women of this generation. I will use my own experience to explain:
A year ago I came out of 6 year relationship I was sure would end in marriage. Once I got over my ex, I nervously entered the dating world. At first I had no idea what I was doing. Trying to flirt, expecting something to fall into my lap because I had a lot of positive qualities. Needless to say, nothing good came of it. After a couple of months of no success, I downloaded the apps and started swiping while constantly looking for someone in my day to day life I could connect with. I was essentially playing 2 hands. The online personality set up drink dates, some of which quickly turned into physical connections. These temporary flings never had a chance to progress to more because both parties were well aware that the other was still constantly swiping, constantly looking for someone else. I always left myself detached and got exactly what I had signed up for: sex, and nothing more.
The real problem with this generation is evidenced by how my other “hand” has played out. In my personal life (aka-real life) I have met and attempted to court 4 different women over the course of the past year. Each time I have been extremely straight forward, telling them that I would like to take them out on a date-an actual date, not drinks, not to ‘netflix and chill’. I ended up going on multiple dates with all 4 of these women but I could always sense their hesitation. They knew I was interested in them and that was the biggest problem. They all made different excuses and eventually these attempts at actual dating fell flat. The women of today’s generation do not want the relationships they continuously post about-tagging them #couplegoals on instagram. They say they want to be courted but they run for the hills when a guy tells them that he has feelings for them. They say they want to be treated as equals but the vast majority would prefer to be treated poorly and taken advantage of physically. They say that they want commitment and yet they cannot stop swiping, sure of the fact that their next match on tinder will look like Channing Tatum and act like Prince Charming.
So men like myself are left playing the hand which they despise. I want nothing more than to be in a meaningful relationship, building toward a life with someone, yet when I tell a girl that I want to take her out to a nice dinner they find a reason to say no, only to be taken advantage of and physically used by a man they meet in a bar. Then they complain to their friends “where are all the good men?”. They are standing in front of you, asking you out to dinner-but you don’t want to be courted, you want to be treated as an object. Over the past year I have have immensely more success with women I do not care about because they want a challenge.
While I understand these are vast generalizations, any man who has ever asked a girl on a serious date knows what I am saying all too well. The reality of the scenario is this: the “good men” are slowly transitioning into the assholes that we all know girls go for because otherwise we will just end up alone. I only hope that my daughter (who I may have to adopt) will appreciate a man who holds the door open for her, pays for her dinner, and tells her that he wants to take her out again-but I know that is wishful thinking.
I agree with you 100% and have had many of the same experiences the past 25 years of my dating life. It’s probably why I settled for the woman I married and soon divorced Good men like us will probably die single unless we settle for the women who don’t look that good or are much older, as they tend to not play these games and are much more sincere
Jones, put an ad on Match.com, with a photo, making it clear that you are looking for an LTR leading to marriage, not a fling, and that you want to court a woman with real dates, not swiping, Netflix, etc. Then, be patient. It may take weeks or months, but you will get responses from women who want that and are interested in you. Make a point of asking to meet every one of them.
Jones : Dating is dating not marriage. Essentially you are testing it out and getting to know each other. It’s perfectly acceptable to decide that person isn’t for you, that’s the whole point. It’s actually a bit disturbing that you felt like every one of those girls you dated was “The one”.
John. Where do you live and where are you hiding? I appreciate your honesty. I can speak from the women’s prospective and say I have been dating after a long term relationship and have found the article to be very accurate. I refuse to go on sites like Tinder and opted for EH after some persuasion from friends. I have connected with numerous first dates never to be heard from again. I have dated men, who I was completely transparent with about how I was feeling only
To have them loose interest slowly, like a slow drawn out burn. My suggestion is to keep being you, get off Tinder and go after the girl you really want. Good women are out there, and actively looking for everything you described.
John, Please read over your words in the last line next time your “friends” talk to you. They all just want(ed) to be treat(ed) like crap. NOW ask yourself WHO gets up in the morning and says GEE I hope I am treated like shit today! I hope I am disrespected, I hope I am not valued or made to feel special. That would be terrible. Keep practicing.
Preach, James!!! I’ve missed these! 🙂
It’s ironic that the very medium responsible for the decline in society’s real world social abilities is the same medium from which you preach and the same medium through which you ask your followers to spread the word.
Dont get me wrong I’m on the same page. Although some good does come out of social media, on the whole, as a society, I think we are poorer for its existence.
What would a social media network need to do for you and others to make it a positive impact on our existence? I ask because we are designing one. We have an idea but I would really appreciate unbiased and unaware of our idea feedback. 🙂
So true. I still have friends who have no idea what it’s like to be courted. I think it’s a certain type of romance missing from today’s society and I hope more people read this article (or others like it) to start a movement towards building relationships with chivalry.
I loved the beginning of your article and I sorry I have to use the awful word, BUT
What happened to emancipation? Why should women wait to be courted?
I’ve dated some girls, but my current girlfriend, future wife and mom of my kids is the women that took the initiative….
So make the world a better place and lead by example. Make your own date, invite the person you would like to get to know better. Man or woman…
When will we finally reach the point where it doesn’t matter anymore?
This blogs shows clearly we are not there yet.
Chivalry is benevolent sexism.
I appreciate the call for men to be more deliberate and specific with their invitations. I can honestly say that I have had a lot of good dates because I made it clear that I was interested in a woman and planned a good date. There have also been times when I have had my self-confidence damaged when I have done so. Often women respond to an invitation to go on a date by making it clear that they have no interest in you. When a man makes his intentions clear, he opens himself up to the real pain of rejection. I am of the opinion that it is worth it to risk rejection to experience a real connection every once in a while, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy for me. I think this just illustrates another problem with our generation: we don’t take dating lightly enough. A first date is a way to have each other’s focused attention, but it is not marriage proposal. I think many women say no to a first date because they don’t want to send the wrong message, but guys catch on to that and start taking the less risky route of hanging out. I think, in their heads, rejection is less likely if they are indirect. I am not saying this is acceptable, but we have to realize that men’s problems are exacerbated by the fact that women often fail to be openminded about going on a first date with someone who is less than their version of Prince Charming.
I agree with you 100000%, and I have been in your shoes many times.
Reblogged this on The Way Home and commented:
Very interesting, but I don’t have time to read it right now.
Wow, i actually cried reading this!!. Everything you said is true, but you probably dont realise that the older generation is now doing the same. No more romance!!!!. Just hanging out, having fun, mixed messages, friends with benefits!! So sad. Just feels like rejection to me. So where are the real men??? I for one miss romance, and hugging and close dancing. Not all women ( at least at my age) want to trap a man or get married. Everyone needs love and real affection💞💞
When guys try to be romantic, girls usually call us wimps or sissies.
How many times has a girl called you a wimp or a sissy?
Paulette:
Where are the real men, you ask? Doing exactly what the man-hating feminazis told them to do: THEY GOT LOST!!!
They went mgtow.
Reblogged this on velezcblog and commented:
This is so true that I think about it all the time as I walk around campus.
Being a college student who sees the hookup culture everywhere I look makes me second guess if chivalry and courting are even valued by women my age. The “Netflix and chill’ that is so popular has me thinking that many men out there have brought the women I see all the time down to a very low standard of what men should do in order to get to know each other.
Maybe this has them thinking that anything more than hanging out, like a real one-on-one date is way to formal and forward. Then again I’m sure there are women out there who appreciate that gesture and would prefer it. It’s all so confusing trying to navigate the dating world nowadays.
Don’t worry, they might know exactly what they’re doing. Granted I was in college 10 years ago, but I did the whole hang out thing. And I did the dating thing at the same time. They way a man treated me determined how seriously I took him. If I was invited to watch a movie, I brought cookies for him and his roommates, was the most chill girl they ever met, and I went home when the movie was done. The guy that asked me over clearly wasn’t serious, so I wasn’t going to invest feelings in that relationship. But the guys that asked me on a date, that they planned, picked me up for, they opened doors, didn’t try to kiss me on the first date (or especially didn’t try on the second), those were the men I took seriously. I am a happily married SAHM to 2 perfect kids because I didn’t settle for a “hang-out culture” type of guy. My sister did and almost 4 years later, he still won’t talk about marriage. You teach people how to treat you, and if you teach them that you’re only worth Netflix, all you’ll get is Netflix.
Spot on. I wonder if the result of this loss of clear dating rituals/labels plus the burgeoning gender/education imbalance (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/26/hookup-culture-isnt-the-problem-facing-singles-today-its-math/) will be more women simply opting out of the dating pool. I know so many great single women, myself included, who rarely even participate because we’d rather be single than treated so casually.
What I think this article misses though is that women have just as much ability and agency to approach men and ask them out on a date. This burden isn’t solely men’s responsibility. We all have to take risks and be courageous enough to communicate what we want.
Chivalry and courting ARE still valued by college students your age. Don’t give up! My daughters are 21 and 24(newly married) and I raised them to respect themselves, thereby not settling for “chilling and a night in” as a first date, unless you are looking for something platonic with that person. It is ok to find someone you like, maybe do a group outing to get to know them better. If you think she’s someone you’d like to get to know better, go for the one on one date. And I agree with the article it doesn’t have to be expensive. Go out for ice cream or a coffee. Or take her to lunch, find a park and feed the ducks, etc. Places where you can talk to each other and learn more about one another. Nowadays I think it’s confusing for anyone, but don’t give up. Nice girls (and nice ladies) know how they should be treated and I would think would welcome chivalry. If she doesn’t, eh…move on!
[…] Source: Dating Decline: Why Nobody Knows What The Hell They’re Doing Anymore […]
This is spot on. High quality women want to know you’ve put some effort into thinking about the time you want to spend w them. We understand that all of this liberation has come at a huge cost. Consider deeply what you want to achieve, besides the physical; there are tons of folks willing to meet that need and if that’s all you want, go to them, but it’s not free and often costs way more than $$$. Nothing in life worth having is free; and more likely it won’t come easily. But the rewards are more than worth the effort and resources. Low hanging fruit…easily stomped, often bruised and half-consumed, more than likely filled w worms, ants, flies, etc…only the living dead go after it.
Preach! lol
Convince me that the “rewards” are worth the effort. You and your sisters have taught me otherwise.
[…] Originally appeared at James Michael Sama’s blog […]
Totally true. I would even take it one step farther, and say that young people have no idea how to even figure out what they want. A man can’t make it clear to a woman that he is interested in her when he can’t even decide that for himself. As a single dating woman, I have three things on my “list”:
1. he has a good, stable career, or has one “in the works”
2. he treats me like I’m important to him
3. he doesn’t have an addiction
It doesn’t seem like a lot to ask, but I still haven’t found a guy who meets all 3 qualifications.
Really? I find that hard to believe if your a single attractive young female – with no kids and no angry ex’s.
Then you haven’t met someone like me
Where are you looking if you are finding people without careers, lol?
Rachel sees what she wants to see. She won’t open herself up to rejection, and she believes (in this age of equality) that a guy has to “qualify” himself to her while she does nothing. In her world, there aren’t any men who hold jobs and they’re all addicted to something. I really wonder where she lives. Or, I wonder how she lives her life in such a way as to never have met a kind man with a career and no addictions. I think the common denominator in her life is herself.
Why is it still assumed that the man does the courting and the woman is the courted?
By the way, it wasn’t like we were “taught how” or “had rules” when I was a teenager. Then, as now, you had to figure it out.
But if I was a teenager now, I don’t think I would date. When I was 16, I was always worried about a girl making fun of me, or rejecting me in a particularly cruel way. They never actually DID that, of course, but you were afraid they might, because you were a kid.
But now? Now, they actually DO that. American girls use social media to publicly shame young men for being awkward, or low-class, or dressing stupidly, or just being not GOOD ENOUGH to actually date them. They take pictures, post them, and publicly tease the poor bastard. I wouldn’t date now. It’s MUCH easier to “hook up” because if it’s no big deal, that can’t happen. A date makes you vulnerable.
Amen brother! Women these days are such hypocrites. They want total equality but they only want it when it benefits them. When something comes up that they don’t want to do or seems challenging, they hide behind their gender as protection or an excuse not to do it. Why can’t the women make the approach and do the courting? It takes a lot of courage to approach a woman in public and attempt to initiate conversation, especially if she is with her friends. I would be completely blown away if a woman approached me when I was with my friends and asked if she could buy me a drink.
What if the woman who approached you was unattractive? What if you were not at all attracted to her and you were busy with your friends and just not interested? What if she was obese? What if she smelled bad?
Ask a few women you know how often they’ve been approached by men they found attractive and were interested in, vs. how often by men they were not attracted to nor interested in. Then think about how much you’d enjoy that ratio yourself. When approached by women you weren’t interested in, would you reject them graciously, being gentle with their hearts, or would you be a jerk? Would you “give them a chance” as so many men wish so many women would do for them?
On the plus side, if a psycho woman gets angry at your rejection, she probably isn’t physically strong enough to kill you with her bare hands, a risk women run every time they say no.
If a woman wants to ask a man out, more power to her. But as men, being expected to do the asking is not such a bad deal. As a man I’m glad to not have to deal with unattractive, weird women asking me out. It’s so much easier to just ignore their flirting.
They really do get to have their cake and eat it, too, don’t they? So unfair.
well if you (generally) don’t exclusively meet girls at bars, judging by the ‘..buy a drink’ line, then they won’t always be with friends and she won’t be contextualized as “a girl at a bar”, and could be more open to talk.
Though most dudes just do what the rap songs tell them to do. I find it easy, and effective, if instead of pick-up lines and complimenting them ad nauseam, you just talk to them like they are people or co-workers. Then gracefully bring the conversation to an end and ask for a number.
The majority of my coworkers are women, so when we go to lunch and it’s me (a guy) and 5 other girls, I learn to talk to them like normal people and not “that girl at a bar who I’m trying to leave with”
Older women do it too. I still see it in my late 20s.
Lawrence, that’s hard to believe that most young women are doing that. Can you post links to examples? If it’s happening enough to be as much of a concern as you indicate, you should be able to easily find a thousand or more such links.
I think you are seriously misguided in your thinking.
The dating world has changed because women have changed. The feminist movement has gained a lot of traction among many women and changed how they act. As a result of their change in behavior, they now treat men differently.
Men responded by being more reserved and not as forward in approaching women. Why? Because women are harsh and rude. It takes a lot of courage to approach a woman and if you are rudely rebuked then how likely are you to approach another one? Once bitten, twice shy.
Now many women are asking where all the real men went without stopping to look in the mirror and see how their own behavior has influenced the interactions between sexes.
It blows my mind how women complain about there being no real men, yet continue to point the finger at men.
You’re right the World has changed women have changed so why men are still acting like kids and didn’t evolve? I agree that there’s no real men anymore (or they are already taken) and that’s a shame!
Perhaps you misunderstood my comment. I’m saying that women have changed how they conduct themselves and how they treat men. Because of these changes, men now treat women differently. However, women don’t like the result of their behavior and how it has resulted in “there being no real men left.”
If women would change how they treat men then they might find that the ‘real men’ come back in large numbers. Women have the ability to fix this problem. Men aren’t going to change only to be treated the same; that would be pointless and they would gain nothing from their change in behavior.
I think that feminism is the root cause of these problems and therefore it must be eradicated. There is a miniseries about feminism on YouTube that was put together into one video that can help you understand what I’m trying to say.
I keep seeing “there’s no real men left”. Here’s a question; define what a “real man” is? I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming the media, but the whole image of the bad boy you can reform, doesn’t exist. I know developmentally arrested women well into their who reject men because they’re “too nice”, and still pull the whole thing “I want an attitude, I want a challenge” well into their 30’s and 40’s, and then they turn around and say “I can’t believe I’m still single”. That guy you rejected for being too nice is eventually going to normal off. That guy with the “attitude” who’s an asshole that you think is a real man, he’s only going to become a BIGGER asshole.
Well said Sir! Women have shit on romance and chivalry and wonder what happened to it! Do a google search for MGTOW if you don’t already know about it. That’s where I am with my life and I couldn’t be happier
So now Mikey is taking it up his ass since he isn’t dating women now. gross.
How long have you been a homo?
There are lots of women interested in a good relationship with a guy, and lots of guys find them and build good relationships with them. If that’s what you want, and you’re not finding it, it’s not the women’s fault. You’re doing it wrong.
Do some googling, or pick up some books, on dating, flirting, approaching women, etc. You can learn to do it right and find a girlfriend.
You’re right, bro
The easiest approach is to talk to girl (read: PERSON) and if you two can carry a conversation, then asking for a number is not awkward or nerve wracking.
It only is awkward and nerve wracking if you go up to a girl, put them on a pedestal, and try to do what the rap songs tell you to, instead of having a normal conversation about ANYTHING – it’s simple.
Just complimenting girls is no way to get her number. It’s creepy. Have a conversation about anything and then bow out gracefully, ask for her number and be gone. Foolproof plan
+1
Reblogged this on Pasarea Phoenix Remixed & co and commented:
well, this is good news for any society. leave violence, materialism, computer addiction or any addiction and focuss on people. in this case the woman. connection between man and woman will save the planet. everithing began by connectin those two some time ago…
Women don’t reject men anymore- they brush them off. Stop talking or make it very clear they would like to stop talking . Why pay for a date when in my gen it’s most likely she makes more money, and Why pay for a date when 30 men before you have had sex , and 5 before that have become monogamous, through “just hanging out” if women actually want to go on dates which I am skeptical of- then I believe it is on them to start persueing them and the men they would like to go on those dates with. Men have been brow beaten into the creep zone for so long that two beers a joint and a redbull is a much safer investment for w fun Friday night than a date with an ungrateful woman who will most likely be texting a “Netflix and chill guy” as the waiter swipes your empty debit card.
Excellent article!! So much of it applies not just to dating, but to relationships in general these days!! There’s little time left over for live person-to-person connections when you spend hours every day on Facebook and other social media….. besides, what’s left to talk about when people post everything they do, eat, etc. on line somewhere??
I agree with the comment above that the this behavioral change is true for all generations, not just the Millennials…..and I think part of the problem is time…… So much easier to dash off a series of text msgs. than to actually take the time to go somewhere, meet someone, and sit down and talk. After all, one of the basic laws of physics is that of the path of least resistance…..
Problem is is that we all need that human connection…. and when it comes to an important relationship, there’s no better way to show someone you care than to share an hour or two of your precious time with them. Who knows, you might even enjoy yourself!!
[…] is on point. #dating #whatiscommitment http://jamesmsama.com/2015/10/25/dating-decline-why-nobody-knows-what-the-hell-theyre-doing-anymore/… …read […]
Tinder murdered the dating scene 🙂
[…] friend posted this article on Facebook. I was curious as to what the guy had to say; I took a gander. I do encourage you […]
A) this is super heteronormative
B) there’s no such thing as the “opposite sex”
C) the “low hanging” fruit analogy for women, plus all the comments talking about “quality women” are pretty gross and misogynistic
D) this whole article, and especially the comments, reek of the “nice guy why aren’t women going out with me?” tone. Women aren’t obligated to go out with you??? If they’re not attracted to you??? They don’t have to go on one date with you to make up their mind that they’re not attracted to you? This shouldn’t be news?
E) NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO DATE OR WANTS A SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP NOW OR EVER. THIS IS OKAY.
I definitely agree that everyone should be more upfront in their intentions about most things, but the overall tone of this article is very much “women are waiting for a real man to come in and sweep them off their feet” and I think that’s wrong and offensive for a lot of reasons.
Thank you. I don’t have to actually go out with a man just because he finds me attractive.
I love how no one is discussing how so many men have unrealistic exception of how woman should look and conduct themselves but men don’t have to have the same level of attractiveness or manners. As a Feminist, I fins so many of the comments exit and hateful.
This is an article about hetero dating. That doesn’t make it heteronormative. Nowhere does the author disparage homosexuality. If I write an article about apples, it doesn’t automatically mean I hate oranges, or vice versa.
“Low-hanging fruit” and “quality” apply to both genders.
A few of the comments do “reek of the ‘nice guy why aren’t women going out with me?’ tone”, but not the article itself.
Yes, it’s certainly true that everyone has the right to say no if asked out. But it isn’t misogynistic for guys to talk about rejection and how to deal with it. Guys have to learn to accept rejection if they want to find a relationship; most of us aren’t born with that knowledge. Discussing it with other guys helps with the learning curve.
Where did you read in the article that “the overall tone of this article is very much ‘women are waiting for a real man to come in and sweep them off their feet’?? That tone is in some comments from some losers who don’t understand how to relate to women.
Greg, meet an honest-to-god feminazi. They’re batcrap insane and beyond the reach of reason; I submit Sarah’s item ‘b” as proof positive of this.
Absolutely!!
I’m reading a lot of comments here to the effect that men aren’t asking women out on dates because women reject them harshly. Guys. This should be taught in school or something: don’t just up and surprise a girl with a date request. You will be rejected almost every time, unless you are in the top tenth of a percent or so of hunkiest guys. She isn’t going to agree to go out with you unless she has ALREADY DECIDED that she will agree to go out with you if you ask. She has a running list in her mind of guys she will agree to go out with if asked; everyone else gets a rejection unless they are a stunning dreamboat that makes her heart race on eye contact. So don’t ask until she’s flirting with you, or in some other way sending signals of her interest in you.
(Yes, of course there are exceptions; adventurous girls who will go out with any reasonably non-creepy guy who asks. But guess what? They’re in the minority, and very few of them are available at any given time; most of them are in relationships.)
So what do you do if the girl of your dreams is doing not showing any flirty interest in you? Be nice to her, show interest in her, flirt with her, maybe give her little thoughtful gifts (but not expensive! that’s creepy!). Be patient, it may take some time for her to decide she’s interested and put you on her “yes” list. But if she never does start flirting back, she’s not interested, so you should seek greener pastures. Or go ahead and get rejected if you must.
On the other hand, what about that nice girl who shows interest in you but you aren’t really hot for her — she’s fine as a friend but you have no particular desire to get intimate with her? Give her a chance and ask her out. Maybe you’ll be more interested in her once you get to know her better. Even if it goes nowhere, you still get practice dating, and that will be helpful when the right girl comes along. And who knows, maybe after a few dates you’ll decide SHE’S the right girl after all.
Maybe one thing that is happening is that some of the most eligible women and men are finding better matches through online dating websites (match.com, etc), and so don’t want to waste their time with far less efficient methods of finding good matches, such as bars and approaching strangers.
I met my wife (we’ve been married 13 years) through an online ad I placed on a predecessor of match.com. I met a lot of women that way. The women never asked me out; they would just respond to my ad and chat about my interests that I had described there. And then I would ask them out. I had made a decision that I would meet any woman who answered by ad. Usually just for lunch on a weekend. Soon I was dating far more than I ever had before.
I also responded to many women’s ads, but I don’t recall a single instance where that led to a date. I wondered what other men were doing differently, so I placed a fake ad for an imaginary woman, and read the responses from men. First, I was amazed at the huge deluge of responses that “she” got. Then, I was equally amazed at the incredibly low quality of those responses — only a tiny percentage showed any sign of having read the ad; the responses all looked like boilerplate that the guy was sending to every woman’s ad.
I was left with the impression that the best way to meet through online ads was for a guy to place an ad, and not spend too much time reading and responding to women’s ads. And for a woman, to put more effort into finding and responding to interesting ads than in placing one of her own. No need to ask him out if you don’t want to; just chat about whatever he writes about in his ad.
I think it’s understandable that a woman who is meeting intereting guys that way might not have a lot of patience for strangers who ask for her number.
I have been online dating for 10 years (off and on, when I have occasionally gotten exclusive with someone), and I have had the exact opposite experience. I rarely get women initiating anything based on my ad, and when they do, they are usually very bad looking, old/older than I am, and/or have children. Pretty much the only attractive, childless women I get are from ME replying to THEIR ad, initially. And even this is barely 5%, if I had to estimate, even though I actually DO write them well written, classy messages that show that I took the time to read through their ad (which I did).
lonstermash, it’s interesting how very different your experiences have been than mine. Would you be willing to post a link to your ad?
What about a sample real response of yours to a woman’s ad; are you interested in having us on this comments section critique it? Couldn’t hurt, right?
My ad is long gone, but I made a decision when writing it not to try to make it all macho like so many guys’ ads (I read some to get an idea of what the competition was doing), but to describe myself honestly even if it made me feel a little bit like a dweeb. I figured that would bring fewer, but higher quality, responses, than I would get if I tried to make my ad “compete”, and I think I was right.
Changing the subject — on the link I posted earlier to a conversation about why women give out numbers with no intention of going out, some of the women said that they had been violently attacked by guys they had politely rejected, and since then always gave out the phone number, so as to avoid being beaten up, even if they had no intention of going out with him. You’re obviously very strong; you look like a body builder. Do you think maybe some women do that because they are afraid of you? After all, if it’s just a conversation between strangers, they don’t know you well enough to know that you would never hurt them.
With dating apps getting famous, the old way of getting to know somebody by slowly getting into their life and penetrating in to their heads, is being perished at an ironic pace, is very disconcerting to way to many people, and these dating apps are only a solution for finding a f**k buddy for yourself. Sorry for using that word.
I’ve tried dating apps but asking guys if they want to come for a surf/ swim/ movie they just vanish or text a dick pic. (Wtf?) One guy admitted it was ‘too much trouble’ to spend time with me even though I’d offered to take him to Mad Max. I just surf, swim and go dancing with my female and gay friends -straight guys have forgotten how to have fun.
Seriously, what’s up with dick pics? That’s so messed up. And, I’ve had the same issue. I’ll ask a guy to do something and then they’ll like “Nah.” It goes both ways for sure.
Is there a problem with guys declining your invitation? Do you feel they are required to say yes to you?
That’s great that you ask guys, but unfortunately rejection comes with being the asker. I’ve read of guys who routinely get 10 or more rejections for every date. And since guys are not socialized to expect to be asked out and to think about how they will respond, it probably usually shocks them, so you can expect a higher rejection rate.
What about starting by asking if he would feel comfortable being asked out by a woman? Then if he responds positively, ask then.
Also, instead of inviting him to surf/swim/movie, how about coffee drinks and a walk in a park? Or just meeting for coffee at a coffeehouse. It would be lower pressure. But in case it goes very well, try to have an idea for something else the two of you could go do after the coffee.
Regarding dick pics, any guy who sends you one is Mr. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, and then some more Wrong, so at least he’s saved you some wasted time.
I completely agree to this article to an extent. The idea of dating as courting is viewed as “old fashioned”, but i feel it is a more meaningful form of interaction than just hooking up. And it’s definitely perpetuated by men who just want sexual conquests, but ultimately I feel that the idea of courtship is actually killed by women. I’ve lost count of how many girls I’ve tried to sweep off of their feet just to lose them to some more attractive guy who just wants to get in their pants. Guys may want to just have sex, but at least they’re honest – men get a bad rap for being womanizers and cheaters, but I my experience it’s women who have issues with loyalty.
Stop trying to “sweep them off of their feet”. It sounds like you’re coming on way too strong and annoying the hell out of them, driving them away. Just plan a nice date and be real with them.
This hardly works, as well, I find. And, according to a lot of women (mostly ones I don’t find attractive) gay men, and heterosexual men in a “no-homo” way, I’m extremely attractive, so it’s not a looks issue. I often hear is, “You’re so hot, so nice, so funny, and, unlike most men, you really have your shit together, but IDK, there’s just something MISSING with us—–you know…….no chemistry.” So WHAT do these women want? Oh, and I totally do the verbal communication thing with my phone—I hate texting. And I plan a date. My ex-wife said that was one of the things she really liked about me when was how well I planned dates (and no, that’s not why we eventually divorced, either before you think I stopped planning them)
lonstermash, have you tried waiting until they start flirting back or otherwise signaling interest? Give them time to decide THEY want YOU. Also, what about those women who find you “extremely attractive” but who you aren’t all that excited about — have you tried giving any of them a chance? Maybe just a short coffeehouse date?
The key that most guys are missing is waiting for the girl to signal her interest, along with respecting her lack of interest if she does not signal it.
Yes, Greg, in most cases I have waited until they signal some interest. Unless they’re bad looking (average at best), a woman rarely flirts with me or any other man I know. And I usually don’t pursue someone unless she DOES show interest, because I hate wasting MY time. And, in my opinion, giving out your damn number IS showing some interest. Otherwise, they say something like, “Ummmm, why I don’t I just call you, instead?” or “I don’t give out my number to men in (fill in the blank—“bars” “the gym” etc).” And yes, I’ve tried to give the women I’m not that into a chance, and in my 25 years of dating (I’m 45 now), it never works, and I often hurt their feelings when I eventually dump them. I’m too visual for my own good, and I’m too used to getting really hot women that it’s hard for me to settle for anything I don’t find hot. I totally respect a lack of interest—–what I don’t respect is being led on.
lonstermash, hurt feelings go with the territory; don’t let that stop you.
When they flirt with you and then give you a fake phone number, is that happening when you’re doing your cosplay thing? If so, I wonder if they feel like they’re playing a role with a character, giving their phone number to “Wolverine”, and making it a fake one because obviously. If that isn’t it, then I’m out of ideas.
Except that there’s one thing I know about women, and that is that I will never understand everything they do and say, and neither will you. Nor do they, from what they’ve told me. I say when you get baffling behavior from a woman, just move on.
Oh, I don’t let hurt feeling stop me—-like I said, I’ve been in the dating world for the last 25 years. And, actually, they don’t give me fake phone numbers (I don’t know where you came up with that). No, I get their real number. They just don’t return my PHONE CALL (yes, my CALL—-not my text, as I actually try to have a real conversation right off the bat, unlike the social retards who only text). And, no, I’m not in cosplay when this happens. I might have my Wolverine beard going on, in preparation for cosplay, but I’m normally dressed and not holding my claws. In the cosplay settings, I actually GET the women sincerely interested in me, because I’m like the Brad Pitt of their world. But the problem in the cosplay world, is, again, the hot girls I like are usually taken, bi-sexual (which I’m not into for anything serious), or they have friend zoned me, again, despite saying how hot I am
lonstermash, regarding being given real phone numbers etc. by girls who don’t actually want to date you, I thought this was interesting reading to get some idea of why they do it:
http://www.yelp.com/topic/alhambra-why-give-out-your-number-when-you-really-dont-want-to
And I find women have issues with being emotionally available.
As somebody who is HORRIBLE at dating, I can attest that nobody knows what they’re doing. Nobody knows what they want. And nobody even knows any basic human interaction anymore.
One thing that this guy doesn’t talk about is what I call “in-dating”. There’s an old saying that in a town this small you don’t lose your girlfriend, you’ve lost your turn. A lot of people now just have relationships within their social circle, and they just interchange partners. I understand why they did it; you didn’t have to actively look for someone, and there was little fear of rejection. But downsides are everyone knows your business, it creates jealousy, and if two people get together that the rest of the group don’t approve of because they step out of their roles, then it creates tension. There were three women, and they all went out with the same guy one right after the other. And apparently none of them had a problem with that. It’s part of the reason why I tend to look outside the local dating gene pool.
Chris Rock once said that for the first six months we don’t date someone, we date their representative. Nobody wants to put that kind of time in anymore.
Go figure. Another article claiming men (all of whom are apparently lazy) need to try harder for women, which is then shared by every woman on Facebook thereby revealing a serious flaw in the very argument that the article is built on. I don’t usually comment on stuff like this but I just thought throwing a rock in the river may stop this stream of “open lettter”, Facebook sharing, click for likes, type of article. In my opinion, don’t bother reading, PASS.
I can go on a whole tirade about this, but as a comedian named Rick Reynolds once said, ladies at some point you have to accept it’s 50% your fault.
lol. true!
I am 31, married two weeks ago, and spent two and half years dating before I finally settled on someone…no “settled” is the wrong word; maybe more like “before I finally met someone who had a clear idea of what they wanted and knew how to be vulnerable,” but there’s no word for that.
I would venture to guess that most people want someone to commit to that they love and who will love them back.
I think the problem therein lies in unrealistic expectations and the unwillingness to be vulnerable, both in men and women. Being vulnerable is scary because it leaves us completely exposed, with the high possibility of being hurt and rejected. When we “hang out” rather than “date” it’s an easy way to not be rejected because the stakes aren’t high. But if we’re unwilling to be vulnerable, then we might not ever be completely fulfilled, and there will always be a missing piece to the puzzle.
I would speculate that vulnerability plays into our intentions. When we “hang out” the intentions aren’t clear. When we “date,” they are. And just because you go out on a date with someone doesn’t mean you have to be interested in them. Isn’t the purpose of a date, just to see if you click? No more than that, unless you agree for it to be more.
For myself personally, I went out with a ton of really sweet, smart, boring men that never would have worked out. After dating all the time for two and a half years, I started limiting it to beer dates for a first date. A beer can be 15 minutes or two hours. You can drink it fast or slow. You can have one or two. And it’s like, five dollars. Low stakes. If you like the person, then maybe commit to a brunch date. Food dates are awful first dates because you can’t leave if it sucks. A third date? Maybe a hike. I’m pretty clear by this point if it’s going to go further than that. This worked well for me. I hope it helps somebody.
“For myself personally, I went out with a ton of really sweet, smart, boring men that never would have worked out.”
All you’re really doing is reinforcing the stereotype of “nice guys are boring”. You said something earlier about “settling”, and I hear that all the time; “I’ll never settle”. Well here’s the thing; it’s not about “settling”. At a certain point I think you have to start looking at different qualities, and re-evaluate just what it is that you find attractive about someone. That’s not “settling”, that’s called making changes.
I generally don’t like women comedians, but how much is there to this bit;
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/19vrqz/comedy-central-presents-dating-regret
Ha! That’s an awesome video. I haven’t seen that before.
Let me explain myself with that statement, because you bring up a good point and I’m not trying to pigeonhole anyone into a stereotype. By the word “boring” I meant “lacking a zest for life.” The guy that I married is sweet and smart, but boring by no means. He has a zest for life that most of the other people I went out with didn’t. He dances, rock climbs, back packs, and he has this twinkle in his eye that that is rare and refreshing. His hobbies and his love of living is what attracted me most to him. I’m attracted to people who love to do something in life, and it really doesn’t matter what that hobby is. It’s the fact that they’re happy because they have it in their lives.
Jessica, what if a guy was so passionate about his hobby that he made a career of it? Would that still count as “zest for life”, or would it count as workaholism — and bore you — if he enjoyed his work so much he spent a lot of time at it?
What if his hobby was indoor stuff that didn’t work well for you to participate in?
When I was dating, I found that women had zero, and often less than zero, interest in my love for sofware programming and making money by marketing software I wrote. You could see the dismay in their eyes when I described it. When my wife and I started dating seriously, we took up hiking together. Even so, my work hours — maybe 45 or so is typical, sometimes up to maybe 50 — were the number one source of friction between us.
Not for nothing, but those hobbies don’t prove someone has a “zest for life”. If you like someone who enjoys the outdoors and likes dancing, then fine. That’s what you like, that’s what you’re attracted to and that’s something you can share together.
You remind me of a girl I went out with a number of years ago (who actually said I was “boring”) and then she saw some travel photos I had put up of a trip to Stockholm, Sweden. She had no idea I had not only gone to Europe, but had gone alone. When she asked me about the trip and why I went alone, i told her I just felt like going, and “you know, you could have easily been in those pictures with me”. I tell you that to preface that you have to be willing to GET TO a point where someone wants to share those things with you. That guy you married, he may be nice and have a “zest for life”, but if you didn’t give him that chance and allow him the opportunity, he might have turned out to be another man you tossed up on the scrap heap.
The two fundamental differences between dating and courtship are direction and accountability. With dating, there is no direction. When you ask a dating couple, particularly a young couple, if they’re headed toward marriage, the usually response is, “whoah. We’re just dating”. This answer implies no real direction. However, for a couple who is courting, it’s understood that the intent is toward marriage. Now, that doesn’t meant that marriage is guaranteed, but the direction and intent are still there.
Secondly, with dating, there is no accountability. Once modern American dating started occurring around the invention of the automobile, instead of a suitor coming to “call” on the woman, the suitor would whisk away the woman with his car and outside of the protective sphere of her family, particularly her father. This would allow the man to start pressuring the woman into doing things she was not prepared for. This is evinced in the 1919 song called “Wait till you get them up in the air, boys” by Lew Brown and Albert Von Tilzer. The point of the song is that the woman can’t run away when she was trapped at 1000 feet in the air. One of the lines from the song says “It isn’t hard to reason with a girl who’s scared to death!”.
With courtship, there is a circle of protection and accountability. This is usually made of of friends, family, peers, and of course, your pastor / priest / minister. If you have no one to keep you accountable for your actions, then the relationship will very likely fail. Also, if you do not bring God into the relationship, the relationship will definitely fail.
What a load–especially the last sentence. Why are you ignoring all the counterexamples that prove that statement false?
Dierk, my wife and I have been married 13 years without “God in our relationship”. How much longer do we have to enjoy our marriage before it fails due to not bringing God in?
good read and article
Rejection isn’t the problem. If all a girl says is “No, I’m not interested” that would be no problem. I’d walk away glad that I took a shot. But many women feel the need to publicly humiliate men, like we are so low that they are insulted by our interest. So I walk away not rejected but completely ashamed. I’m just saving myself the embarrassment at this point. I have enough success with the Netflix and Chill method.
cengator: if she wasn’t already flirting with you or otherwise indicating an interest in you, you’re asking her out too soon. Don’t just up and surprise a girl with a date invitation; you’ll be rejected almost every time. Flirt with her until she starts flirting back, and if never starts flirting back, she’s not interested, so don’t ask her out.
Do they publicly humiliate you after flirting with you? I doubt it.
While I agree with a lot that is written. You have missed what happens when you do actually ask a woman on a date. The majority of the time it is rejected as some strange invitation. If accepted the majority of women later on freak out and cancel last minute. While a majority of men have lost the art of how to date. Women have lost the ability to actually go on one when asked.
If she wasn’t already flirting with you or otherwise indicating an interest in you, you’re asking her out too soon. Don’t just up and surprise a girl with a date invitation; you’ll be rejected almost every time. Flirt with her until she starts flirting back, and if she never starts flirting back, she’s not interested, so don’t ask her out.
Do they freak out and cancel last minute after flirting with you? I doubt it.
If women have lost anything, it may be the knowledge of how to graciously decline. The girls you’re talking about sound like they don’t know how to say no.
David, I just wanted to add — I was once stood up by a girl who probably just didn’t know how to say no. I knew her well at work but had not flirted. Also she was very introverted and did not have high social skills. At the time I blamed her, but since then I’ve realized that my mistake was asking her before she’d indicated any interest. Looking back at how well we got along as co-workers, I think there may have been potential for us if I’d understood how to give her the time she needed to think it over, by flirting to convey my interest and waiting for her to start flirting back (and yes I knew that she did not have a boyfriend and was hetero). But since she stood me up, I didn’t ask her again.
Then it’s too bad they can’t use their head and at least lie about already having a boyfriend. Giving out your number to someone you’re not interested in when he/she is clearly interested in you is just WRONG and cruel. I recently had two girls OFFER their number to me that I wasn’t at all into. I said to the first, “Oh, we can just keep in touch on my FB page,” so that she got the hint. The second actually did it ON my FB page, so I told her straight out that I was only interested in being friends, if that was OK. But, really, if you don’t have the guts to say “No” (which I understand, as you don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings), how hard is it to say that you’re already involved with someone? That way no one gets hurt, and you don’t then have to look really bad by cancelling a date, etc.
Yep!
Thank you! You are absolutely right!
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the best 😉
This is hilarious. Again, men are to blame for everything. Women desire chivarly so much. To be courted. Well, that was in the time that men had more money, and to compensate, women were treated in a more chivalrous way. It was a way to balance things out. Now, in the 21st century, men and women are basically equal, yet we still hold on to those old fashioned traditions of men asking women out. The women are acting like passive wastes, waiting for their prince on the white horse, just like in the Disney movies. Time to wake up. In an equal world, both men and women should ask each other out, because right now men would clearly have to do a lot more effort to get a girl, while women can just lay back and yawn.
How do you plan to respond when a girl you are not attracted to asks you out? Because that would be the case most of the time, as it is for women today. Are you going to learn the subtle art of letting her down gently, or are you going to be a jerk?
Also, for 99% of women, getting a guy she finds attractive to ask her out is more work than just “laying back and yawning”. For most women, just “laying back and yawning” is a good way to never get asked out and never get married. Try educating yourself by googling about how to get a guy to ask a girl out, and be amazed at how hard it is for many women to get a date.
Well, then I guess I must be really unattractive or have no game (despite the large amount of women that DO say I’m super hot), because most women that I have asked out are either taken or not interested. And I assure you, I’m not a jerk when I hit on someone (which might actually be the problem). I’m recently dating someone who can’t believe I’ve had such difficulty getting women.
You really seem to believe that there are women out there asking guys out,all the time.You can keep selling that hypothetical,”What if a girl you are not attracted to asks you out?, as if it goes on daily. From what I am reading here, that is NOT happening. You are “challenging” all of the guys who dropped out to give you examples ( prove it, post a link etc. ).
Then, it’s give the women “a chance” when nothing is given in return. These guys do not need or want your sympathy,they are just telling you what happened.It is very clear that you disagree.Sounds a little one-sided.
leonard, I have no idea how you drew those conclusions from my post.
My point is that guys who wish girls would ask them out are thinking of some very attractive girl asking them out. But if girls really did start asking out guys as freely as guys ask out girls, the reality for most guys is that most of the girls asking him out would not be girls he found attractive. Just as today, for most girls, most of the guys who ask her out are not guys she is attracted to. If you don’t believe me, ask any girl who’s attractive enough and been around long enough to have been asked out a lot. It isn’t some big secret.
My point about giving a girl a chance (a girl who is flirting with you but who you would not have thought to ask out) is that you might find you like her more once you get to know her, and that even if it goes nowhere, dating practice is still helpful for a guy who does not get a lot of dates; it can help boost his confidence, which makes him more attractive.
Your point about “nothing given in return” is strange; dating a girl doesn’t mean you are buying something from her. What you get in return is the pleasure of her company during the date. Approaching dating as a tit-for-tat exchange is a good way to turn women off; if that’s your attitude, you probably aren’t going to find love.
lonstermash, just because most women are not attracted to most of the guys who ask them out, it does not follow that the reason for the high rejection rate you’ve described is that they find you unattractive. It sounds like the reason must be something else.
I disagree. Why else does someone (and I’m only talking about single people, in case that wasn’t obvious) GENERALLY not want to go out with someone who hits on them? What is this something else you speak of?
lonstermash, do you seriously think that lack of physical attraction is the only reason a woman would reject a date invitation?? If that is truly where you are at in your understanding of women, I’d have to suggest putting some time into reading up on what women are attracted to.
A big reason for rejection is personality. A guy could come on too strong, or seem insecure, or self-centered, etc. etc. A guy needs to project both confidence and respect, and genuine interest in her as a person, and that doesn’t come easily for a lot of guys.
Another big one in general is dress and grooming, but I doubt that is an issue for you.
The hot women I know are constantly being hit on, especially in this day and age of social media.
Lonstarmash…10 to 1 your having issues with women who find you attractive and you find attractive….is due to your narcissistic outlook. I can tell from just reading your replies here. You have a huge ego that is quite evident. Dating is hard most definitely. Try not telling your dates how hot you think you are..and maybe compliment and listen to them more 🙂 People with too much ego are definitely a turn off for anyone with substance.
Thanks for your advice, but you’re completely wrong with your assessment of me. Yes, I do think highly of myself and take pride of appearance and accomplishments, but I’m not a narcissist. I certainly don’t tell my dates that I think I’m hot—–anyone with half a brain knows that would be beyond stupid and most definitely a turn off. In fact, I often hear from women how pleasantly surprised they are that I actually AM humble and very down to earth, after they get to know me. And you should only know how many times I compliment my dates and listen to them. I think in some cases I have built up THEIR egos too much by my reassurance that they look great, etc, when they pull the typical “Oh, I look fat in this outfit” despite looking like they should be in PlayBoy bullshit. And I actually listen to some women MORE than they listen to me (they blame this on their ADHD). 🙂
It’s so narcissistic for women to complain about a lack of dates, but place 100% of the blame on the men. Ladies – has it ever occurred to you that you’re not worth the effort? Men are very simple. If the cost of a date or relationship exceeds the benefit, they will pass every time. Women constantly complain that men just want to look at porn and play video games. But thing about – you are LOSING to these games and pictures! How pathetic! Would you want to be with someone who has nothing to offer? Of course not. Men are doing the same thing. Of course this goes both ways, but as you’re complaining about the men, take a good look in the mirror.
John just hit the nail on the head… I posted the following in a “10 things men don’t do anymore”, as well as an “8 things women don’t do anymore” blog post over at hubpages, but it’s VERY relevant here as well:
(cut and pasted quote– excuse my typoes)
Maybe the problem is women aren’t good catches for decent men (the main reasons being #2, #3, and #8 [from the “8 things women don’t do” post]), and that’s why women get stuck with crappy deadbeat men– because they’re the only ones that’ll take her. Of course, it’s probably more likely that they chose those crappy deadbeat men because for some stupid reason those crappy deadbeat men made their pussy tingle, and god knows in a woman’s mind that trumps all the red-flags that told her he was a bad idea to get involved with him in the first place.
No man with a sense of self-worth is going to put up with what passes for a woman nowadays– they’re not going to keep [or pursue] a woman who adds no value to his life– and he decides what the terms for that added value is, not women. In short, women may be the gatekeepers of sex, but good men are the gatekeepers of relationships. Funny how that works, huh?
In the meantime, women all think they can act like overly-entitled princesses (I deserve to be treated like royalty by a George Clooney/Brad Pitt clone because vagina!), human housepets (lazy as hell in relationships with GOOD men– not to be confused with “nice guys”– but happily throw your prime years away on deadbeats/unstable bad-boys), children in adult women’s bodies (must be led around by the hand like a 5 year old and told what to do because they have no clue what they’re doing in a relationship, or just plain don’t care due to the above princess syndrome), or “strong and independent” (I DON”T NEED NO MAN!!… wait… where have all the good men gone? :,( … in short you refuse to connect and commit to a man on a deeper level, therefore your relationships fail.)
So, yeah, congratulations ladies… you wanted independence and equality, and now you have it. Bed. Made. Lie.
Some relevant reading material to this list as a whole (FTR, I’m not affiliated with any of these sites):
–https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/women-are-the-ones-who-want-to-avoid-commitment/
–https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/why-men-are-withdrawing-from-courtship/
(most of the other pieces linked in the “withdrawing from courtship” article are worth reading as well)
–http://www.returnofkings.com/7543/american-girls-have-no-game
–http://www.rooshv.com/the-death-of-male-authenticity
–http://www.rooshv.com/do-women-improve-the-lives-of-men
Personally, that last link sums up my own view near-perfectly… except I haven’t needed nor wanted a woman for a physical release for 15 years now, and counting. My sex drive is as healthy as ever, but I’ve found that women are just not very good lovers (and no, my expectations don’t come anywhere close to porn sex… which I know better than anyone else is only good for the camera) since most of them only know how to offer a set of holes to stick things in, and that’s about it. FTR, yes, I know the problem isn’t me, which I base not on anything anyone told me, or any unfounded assumptions, but exclusively on the fact that my exes all were the ones pawing at me and trying to get me into bed… while I was the one swatting them away for the above reason. Women have their own “unique” version of logic, for sure, but one thing I know for sure about them is that they don’t try to drag a guy to bed if he doesn’t get the job done. Once a guy gets over handing out “pussy-passes”, modern women just really don’t have much of value to offer a man that he can’t get through other, less effort-consuming means.
(end cut-and-paste).
I’ve had my fair share of relationships over the years, and while the women I actually got into relationships with were perfectly decent people in general, they just didn’t proactively do jack squat within the relationship to make me want to stay with them… in addition to the pawing at me and whatnot, some of these women wanted to spend their lives with me, marry me, have kids with me, etc., but would fight me tooth-and-nail to justify why they shouldn’t have to do even the most basic acts to please me in the bedroom, they’d fight me on every single thing under the sun outside the bedroom, or basically fall heavily into one of the categories I listed above.
If the best I have to look forward to from being in relationships with women who are otherwise decent people is a (barely) glorified friendship in return for the expectation of forsaking all other women along with doing all the things traditionally expected of men, what’s the point of me putting in the time, energy, and resources in order to pursue a woman in the first place?
So, you have swallowed the “red pill”…Congradulations! You will never find a nice date again. Not that you seem to want or need it. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for those mysoginistic losers to brainwash other willing guys like you. Enjoy your newfound freedom. Thanks heaven, there are only a few of you. And thanks again, there are great guys left out there, guys who wouldn’t listen or read the above mentioned BS.
To James- always enjoyed reading you. This article is no exception.
Hate to tell you this, “Windy City” but when I “took the red pill” about a year ago, it only confirmed conclusions that had already started forming for the better part of a decade-plus beforehand completely on my own… so sorry, no “brainwashing” occurred. It essentially just put my feelings into words (and by words, I’m talking about the portion of “manosphere” content that’s actually meaningful and ISN’T vitriolically hostile venting of men who had large parts of their lives destroyed– something I’m thankful I had the sense to not let happen to me), while it was experiences with and the actions of women over that decade-plus that really made me see the lack of value in a relationships with them in the first place.
Regardless, read my post again, along with the other links I posted, and tell me what exactly about any of it is misogynistic. (FTR, it should go without saying that criticism of women, in and of itself, is NOT synonymous with misogyny). I purposely choose those articles to share when I post about this stuff specifically BECAUSE they’re extremely objective and are calmly representative of a male perspective on the whole current gender-relations mess.
As I said above: I’ve had plenty of nice dates over the last 20 years with a wide range of otherwise normal women who are decent human beings, and then from all walks of life– bartenders and factory line workers, all the way up to women with masters degrees and doctors (who, FTR, made way more money than I do, and it was never a concern in my eyes), and all of varying physical proportions/attractiveness– short, tall, some slightly overweight, some rail-thin, some flat chested with no hips, some super curvy, some with model-quality facial features, some not so much, etc.)… however, they all wound up being bad relationship material for the reasons I listed above (usually the housepet or overgrown child categories– they expected their default existence in my life or half-assed efforts that I had to “command”/ask/request/beg of them to be all that’s required– basically they only wanted to do enough to placate me into staying in the relationship, my actual happiness be damned– while expecting all the value that was traditionally expected of men– plus more– from me).
Obviously I must not be all that “misogynistic” if I’ve put enough effort into my past relationships that they progressed to the point on more than one occasion they wanted to spend their life with me, marry me, have kids with me, and they even did the large majority of initiating sexually (regardless of whether I rejected them or not), etc. Unfortunately, like most other “modern” women, they were either incapable due to incompetence, or simply refused to show mutual respect through actual proactive effort, so I broke off my commitment to them (at times after years of patience with them)… in short, they wanted me to give them kids, and to acquire me as a husband, and gain all of what that entails (provision of all facets of security– emotional, physical, and financial; please them as a lover; make them feel special and appreciated, etc.), but they didn’t want to have to work even to a minimal extent at being a wife, returning those same sentiments in a feminine way as a matter of mutual respect in return (at times even fighting tooth-and-nail to justify why they shouldn’t have to).
How exactly is it misogyny to expect more effort than that of platonic friendship (or for that matter, just her neutral default existence) from a woman when that woman feels compelled to tell a man she loves him?
That said, it’s often said that the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results… if pursuing women I seem to get along OK with only ever results in unfulfilling, one-sided relationships EVEN WHEN THEY EXPRESS THAT THEY LOVE ME AND WANT TO BUILD A FAMILY WITH ME, I ask again, what’s the point of pursuing women?
Here’s another way to look at it– the Tiger Analogy:
–https://matingselfishness.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/the-tiger-analogy-plausible-deniability-is-sadistic-and-cruel/
Now consider that the average women behind those doors is likely to at best provide only her default existence in his life if he opens enough doors to find to find her, which will add more hardship to his life without adding any compensating benefit, and will result in a net-loss overall… what’s the point of fighting all those tigers for a net-loss in quality of life?
Finally, ask yourself this: If there are so many great men out there who aren’t like all us so called “red pill misogynists”, why are there so many articles where women are railing about how they can’t find any good men, and all the complaints about men being more interested in porn and video games than real women? Maybe the question you should be asking is why are porn and video games OUT-PERFORMING WOMEN for grown-men’s attention?
Could it possibly, just maybe, be because women stopped providing traditional value as relationship partners for men while actually expecting MORE than traditional value from men? Simply having a stable job that would provide and maintain the “structural” integrity of a modest home while having decent personal character used to be enough… now men are expected to also take on a significant portion of maintaining the environment within the home that was traditionally covered by women, while also being expected to providing endless excitement to “keep her interested” emotionally, be the full range of dominant to romantic lover that understands every minor nuance of female sexuality, and constantly be adding more and more and more to his life to increase what he offers a woman in social status–basically unchecked Briffault’s law– to the point 90%+ of the men out there will inevitably break.
Most of this is due to society giving women an over-inflated sense of self-worth (average and slightly below average women believe they deserve near-perfect men), while their value as relationship partners has DROPPED considerably (they’re not loyal/trustworthy to put faith in as supportive lifelong partners to face the world with– they’re essentially only “fair-weather fans” of their male partners, they don’t invest effort in cultivating a quality relationship along with a man and expect him to do all the work to “prove his worth”, they don’t give passionate affection and intimacy, only demand and take it, etc.).
Things like MGTOW/Red Pill don’t just randomly fall out of the sky, sweetheart… and if the average woman isn’t being “properly” courted anymore and there’s a “shortage” of decent men who want to “date” women, maybe the problem isn’t that men are weak (or something equally preposterous like women giving sex too “freely”), but rather that the average woman isn’t worth courting… and that’s because men who were still willing to do so are finding out the average woman doesn’t know what she’s doing once she gets into a relationship with a guy she wants to keep, and he still has to do everything for himself while also working to “keep” her. Maybe those “great men” that you can’t find, or who aren’t committing to you, aren’t doing so not because they’re “too weak”, but because you’re not that great of a woman.
Man, so much of this hit home with my experiences the past 25 years of dating. You make so much sense Chris (unfortunately)
Reblogged this on Venistine Blog and commented:
I think a big part of this is the fact that people (particularly younger men and women) have completely lost sight of what ‘dating’ actually means. Then again, maybe they didn’t actually lose sight of it because they never knew in the first place. Many members of the more recent generations have grown up just ‘hanging out’ with each other and calling it a relationship.
Well since many women have a Career today which i have Noticed how very Greedy And Selfish that they have become.
I am a nice looking guy,financially independent and I get asked out by women all the time.And I always give the same response…..NOOOOOO! Why do I say no? Simple really.Self Preservation.If I did choose to go out with her she might turn out to be a whack job.I might have to yell at her and tell her what a moron she is.She will call the cops and I get charged with “verbal assault”.I might go to give her a kiss on the cheek and she screams “sexual assault” and I get charged.What if I went over to her house and she was angry at me for whatever reason.She can dial 911 and report a “false domestic violence”charge against me.She might be a single mother(UGH!!) and report a “false child abuse” charge against me.Is this worth it?……NO WAY! Today’s “modern women” are nothing more than “PREDATORS”.There is a saying in the business world….”If it flies,floats or f***s…it is always cheaper to rent”.Truer words have never been spoken.Save yourself the BS gentlemen.Paid sex is much cheaper than free sex…and it is not free! The best thing a man can do with today’s “modern women” is avoid them like the plague! They are not worth the time,money or trouble.Forget American women, they only spell trouble, they all hear from each other how to maximize the eventual cash out, to drag the man into court, they have it down to a fine art. Go Your Own Way!
[…] don’t think it’s a coincidence that we have seemingly lost sight of valuing these attributes, and that relationships seem to be crumbling every single day. I hear literally every single day, […]
How this for a harsh truth woman need to face…
Woman have become so horrible, that their only currency PUSSY is no useless.
They wanted equality, well instead they became demanding cunts that want men to do everyrhing, and then woman still want to be equal. News flash! Life doesnt work that way, and I would rather jerk off on occasion, than put up with a womans constant bullshit to maybe get laid 5 or 6 times a year. Let bitches pay their own way for everything, and we’ll see they like it.
Express your interest in a woman and you won’t end up in the Friend Zone?
Someone doesn’t get out much!
Before you can even complete your opening sentences, she has already decided whether or not you even are worth her time. At best you might end up in the Friend Zone, not that there is any hope you will ever get out of it. At worst, she will harshly reject you and make sure everyone sees it when she does so that you are thoroughly embarrassed.
After a few cycles of this, a young man will just give up on dating and remain far away from women. He eventually learns that he can live a good life without a woman in it, especially while watching how his friends get destroyed by the women they “won”.
Agreed, bro.
[…] article was originally published at jamesmsama.com. Reprinted with permission from the […]